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Author
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Topic: Let's talk about FBB duals
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alphataru
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 08:38 AM
      
So, since there is a lot of talk about reprinting duals lately, I'm wondering what everyone think will happen to FBB dual's price in the event of a reprint.
I think it's pretty obvious that, in the event of a foil promo reprint, unlimited and revised duals will drop like a rock. I think most people who get FBB duals get them for the "BB" rather than the "F", since it seems to be the cheapest way of getting blackbordered duals.
Do you guys think FBB duals will drop with revised and unlimited, or do you think there's a certain allure to the "FBB" and that they will keep value?
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flophaus
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 09:00 AM
I don't think that Rev-Unl duals will drop "like a rock".I could see them not going up so quickly as they are now, and perhaps going down slightly at first, but they'll still be the originals. I think that even if there were abundant foil duals, people would still "pimp out" their decks with the originals. Not only that, but at this point they are obviously collectibles too. As for FBB, I could see them being MORE sought-after than regular rev-unl duals, because this would be furthering the "pimping" Also, I am not positive about this, but I would imagine that there are actually less qty. of FBB duals than regular (English) ones, perhaps making them more rare. Just a couple quick thoughts... by no means a definitive statement.
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Mr.C
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 11:00 AM
Maybe I'm different, but i'll take old frame FBB over new frame foil Japanese (if it comes to that) any day of the week. I just love the old-style dual textbox.
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Nitelite
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 12:30 PM
 
They will never reprint duals so don't worry about it.
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mm1983
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 01:40 PM
I would probably quit playing if they ever reprinted duals and Force of Will both as judge foils.
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sdematt
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 01:54 PM
They'll reprint the duals, and the Force of Will as a Judge foil, mark my words. I've heard many arguments for the reprinting of duals, and it makes sense. There's not a ton of supply, and demand is increasing. If the price becomes higher, less people will play the format, which will hurt the game. I think they will reprint the duals eventually (I'd say within the next 3 years). Will they be legal in Standard? No. Will they probably be limited release in some way like From the Vault? Probably. Do I agree with reprinting? Yes, if it doesn't hurt the value of the duals I have (which I don't think it will). FTV hasn't hurt the prices of the cards that are in the set. One thing: if they reprint the duals, make them Whiteborder, for the love of God. -Matt
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seer
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 02:29 PM
You are a fool if you think that duals are not going to be reprinted at some point.My guess is every card on the restricted list (including power) will be reprinted within the next 15 years.
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sdematt
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 04:22 PM
Reread the above post, and decided my comment wasn't really necessary.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by sdematt on March 15, 2010]
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dwiz
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 06:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by seer:
You are a fool if you think that duals are not going to be reprinted at some point.My guess is every card on the restricted list (including power) will be reprinted within the next 15 years.
Color me a fool then. The exodus from the game will overshadow any profit Wotc would potentially make.
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alphataru
Member
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posted March 15, 2010 07:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dwiz:
Color me a fool then. The exodus from the game will overshadow any profit Wotc would potentially make.
You really just have look at it one way to see why wizards would definitely reprint duals and friends. Eternal formats make them very little money, thus, it stands to reason that if they could somehow squeeze money out of the format, they would.
Additionally, the price increase of duals give the people who are pushing reprints, Menendian for example, a big piece of evidence for reprinting.
Anyway, Judge FoW is highly likely even this year. The only question would be: how wizards should reprint duals. IMO, judge promo duals would not solve the supply situation, but FTV: Duals would tank dual prices immediately. So the situation is quite delicate.
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MTDetermine
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 01:01 AM
To me, not reprinting Duals and let their value continue to appreciate is actually good for WOTC because1) Makes Legacy less attractive relative to T2 (T2 is where WOTC makes money)
2) Best demonstration that MTG is a "good investment that holds value"
Reprinting Duals may make WOTC some money in the short term from a format which they cannot make any but
1) Reprinting will make Legacy cheaper and more attractive to T2 on a relative basis
2) Lowers confidence that MTG "is a good store of value". Remember, today's T2 is tomorrow's Legacy. 99% of today's T2 is junk but confidence is important to any market.
If I am WOTC and I want to make money off Duals, I will probably announce a very limited release of foil Alternate Art Dual, with limited print-run of say 1000-2000 each. I can price them with MSRP of $100-200. With average price of $150, print run of 2000 each, the gross retail revenue will be equal to selling 25000 booster boxes.
Pimp players who want all-foils deck will want them. Collectors will probably want a set of 10 each as well. Best of all, I can get to earn some money from Legacy without impacting confidence in the secondary market. For those who argue that people will not pay $100-200 for 1 foil alternate art Dual of limited print run, I will say you should look at Guru land. If a very limited basic land can sell for $50, a rare foil Underground Sea can easily fetch $200-300.
A mass release of cheap Duals will undermine confidence in the whole MTG market. A very limited release of exclusive Duals can let Wizard:
1) Expand supply slightly
2) Earn some money from Duals
3) Create some demand from collectors I must stress that confidence is very important in any market. Any central banks that print money without restrain will kill off their currency's value. If WOTC let people think that they will print old cards in a similar manner, it will kill off the MTG market in the longer run (the process will not be sudden but will likely take a few years).
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MTDetermine
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 01:05 AM
To players/traders/collectors who are hoarding Duals, never say WOTC will never reprint reserve list cards. Instead of hoarding 30+ playsets* of Duals, you can start to sell off excess Duals and only retain say 1-2 playsets for own usage and collection. *1 playset = 40 duals.
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Mr.C
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 01:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MTDetermine:
(...)Instead of hoarding 30+ playsets* of Duals (...)
Like you? 
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mr.C on March 16, 2010]
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Nitelite
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 03:06 PM
I debated whether to mention this on here but what the hell...So as a few of you know, a few months back I retained an attorney that is also representing a group of other businesses and individuals who have concerns over WoTC's handling of the reprint policy. We have had dialog with the legal reps at WoTC touching on a lot of issues (in fact, have another conference call tomorrow morning). In those discussions, WoTC has maintained that they have no intention of ever reprinting the p9 and duals. In their own words, they said the idea was "repugnant". While I never believed they would reprint those cards specifically, I am seeking clarification on where they draw the line and what they believe their legal responsibilities are. If I get any more information, I will post. I have been hesitant to mention any of this because I know it is not a favorable action to take, especially considering a lot of people don't like the idea of the reprint policy in the first place. That doesn't erase the fact that it exists and many people have relied on it. I recommend reading up on promissory estoppel. Just to reiterate, at this point I am only seeking clarification. I am small potatoes compared to some of the other parties involved but I do have a decent investment and do not believe its wrong to ask what WoTC's intentions are.
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MTDetermine
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 07:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
Like you?
Does not want to divert the thread to other stuff. To clarify, I do not have 30+ playsets of Duals. Having 30+ playsets will be great after the run-up in Duals' prices =(
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ProfileNotFound
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 08:01 PM
First of all, I'm not for or against reprinting reserved list cards. I would just like to point out something that always nags me; these cardboard biodegradable cards will not last forever, eventually they will decay. If WOTC doesn't reprint power nine, duals, etc. then someday they will all be gone for good. So, I just hope if they don't reprint them, that the people who are hoarding them are keeping them in air tight vaults, perfectly sealed from all elements so they don't just end up forgotten. /rant over
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mm1983
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 08:08 PM
When they do it they will call it From the Vault Reserved. 10 duals and 5 moxes.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by mm1983 on March 16, 2010]
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oneofchaos
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 08:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mm1983:
When they do it they will call it From the Vault Reserved. 10 duals and 5 moxes.
I think "The end of our game" is a better name.
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Mr.C
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 09:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MTDetermine:
Does not want to divert the thread to other stuff. To clarify, I do not have 30+ playsets of Duals. Having 30+ playsets will be great after the run-up in Duals' prices =(
I remembered you mentioned somewhere as having 800 duals or something. May have been someone else from Singapore, tho. quote:
Originally posted by Nitelite:
I debated whether to mention this on here but what the hell...So as a few of you know, a few months back I retained an attorney that is also representing a group of other businesses and individuals who have concerns over WoTC's handling of the reprint policy. We have had dialog with the legal reps at WoTC touching on a lot of issues (in fact, have another conference call tomorrow morning). In those discussions, WoTC has maintained that they have no intention of ever reprinting the p9 and duals. In their own words, they said the idea was "repugnant". While I never believed they would reprint those cards specifically, I am seeking clarification on where they draw the line and what they believe their legal responsibilities are. If I get any more information, I will post. I have been hesitant to mention any of this because I know it is not a favorable action to take, especially considering a lot of people don't like the idea of the reprint policy in the first place. That doesn't erase the fact that it exists and many people have relied on it. I recommend reading up on promissory estoppel. Just to reiterate, at this point I am only seeking clarification. I am small potatoes compared to some of the other parties involved but I do have a decent investment and do not believe its wrong to ask what WoTC's intentions are.
You guys just don't get it, right? If prices continue climbing, Legacy as a format will END, and your investment will tank. I say again, action now is better than no action at all. Or if Wizards really want, they will just print Duals that CIP and u gain 1 life, and ban the original ones. Want to see your investment there...
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mr.C on March 16, 2010]
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sdematt
Member
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posted March 16, 2010 09:10 PM
Walter, I agree. I like the fact that my investments are increasing, but, if they go much higher, interest in the format will be lost, players will drop off, and eventually that investment will decrease. I'm okay with the reprinting as long as the originals dont tank (which I think they wouldn't)-Matt
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alphataru
Member
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posted March 17, 2010 01:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
I remembered you mentioned somewhere as having 800
You guys just don't get it, right? If prices continue climbing, Legacy as a format will END, and your investment will tank. I say again, action now is better than no action at all.Or if Wizards really want, they will just print Duals that CIP and u gain 1 life, and ban the original ones. Want to see your investment there...
No, the format will not end. It will simply expand slower rather than stop. Unlike T2, you can build a deck in Legacy and play it for years. Also, you can rest confidently knowing that your mana base, though expensive, will not be obsolete after the next 'rotation'.
Sure, entry cost will be higher, but once you pay the upfront fee of mana base + staples, you pretty much only have to pay a little to keep your deck up to date.
So, no, the rumors of the format dying is widely exaggerated.
@Nitelite - I'm glad you are in contact with wizards. However, I'm sure what they mean is simply 'we will not put duals/moxes into a box set'. It's pretty clear they are willing to reprint staples as judge promo. The recent printing of Dreadnaught is a shinning example of how they're willing to reprint something that is relatively expensive in judge form.
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Mr.C
Member
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posted March 17, 2010 02:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by alphataru:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.C:
I remembered you mentioned somewhere as having 800
You guys just don't get it, right? If prices continue climbing, Legacy as a format will END, and your investment will tank. I say again, action now is better than no action at all.Or if Wizards really want, they will just print Duals that CIP and u gain 1 life, and ban the original ones. Want to see your investment there...
No, the format will not end. It will simply expand slower rather than stop. Unlike T2, you can build a deck in Legacy and play it for years. Also, you can rest confidently knowing that your mana base, though expensive, will not be obsolete after the next 'rotation'.
Sure, entry cost will be higher, but once you pay the upfront fee of mana base + staples, you pretty much only have to pay a little to keep your deck up to date.
So, no, the rumors of the format dying is widely exaggerated.
(...)
[/QUOTE]Like Vintage, right? 'Slowly Growing'. Suuure.
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alphataru
Member
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posted March 17, 2010 03:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
Like Vintage, right? 'Slowly Growing'. Suuure.
So, are you telling me that Legacy was more popular in 2008 and earlier when the price of duals were 40% or more cheaper than now? If a format's popularity is simply due to it's cost, then we'd all be playing pauper now.
Fact of the matter is, Legacy's resurgence of popularity has to do with it's new found support by SCG. Don't pretend that it's not. There are multiple reasons as to why Vintage is unpopular, cost aside, it's also perceived to be unfun, warpped, limited deck choices, no official support, and what not.
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CoupDeGrace
Member
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posted March 17, 2010 03:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
[B]I remembered you mentioned somewhere as having 800 duals or something. May have been someone else from Singapore, tho.
U are right... He used to have that amount of duals, in fact, more than that.
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mm1983
Member
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posted March 17, 2010 04:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by alphataru:
So, are you telling me that Legacy was more popular in 2008 and earlier when the price of duals were 40% or more cheaper than now? If a format's popularity is simply due to it's cost, then we'd all be playing pauper now.Fact of the matter is, Legacy's resurgence of popularity has to do with it's new found support by SCG. Don't pretend that it's not. There are multiple reasons as to why Vintage is unpopular, cost aside, it's also perceived to be unfun, warpped, limited deck choices, no official support, and what not.
SCG supports the format because it helps them sell more of their old stock that was worth next to nothing for years.
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