quote:

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Originally posted by Gawain:
If this is referenced or linked somewhere above, I apologize for being superfluous, but I'm in a hurry and this is AWESOME:

5/28/09, James Carville vs. Karl Rove, interviewed live by Charlie Rose. I am THERE.

That's all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ml490:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gawain:
If this is referenced or linked somewhere above, I apologize for being superfluous, but I'm in a hurry and this is AWESOME:

5/28/09, James Carville vs. Karl Rove, interviewed live by Charlie Rose. I am THERE.

That's all.

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Yeah... There doing it as part of there interview series I believe its going to be at Madison Square Garden.... Regardless I have two tickets... it should be interesting[/QUOTE]

Amerikkka: **** YEAH! Gogo team decepticon politicians. There is no such thing as a trustworthy politician. No matter how much they claim to believe in the rule of law, they actually just don't care.

Obama: The same things as Bush, just with different names. Dems '012!

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Although I'd prefer this to happen through the UN, the important thing is that it happen at all. Perhaps this move, even if it fails, will show the rest of us the importance of taking it up at the level of the UN.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

You don't think there was US torture under Clinton, Carter or JFK? Do you think China or Russia are torture free? How about Africa or the Middle East? South America? Do you think the UK or France have a better torture record than America?

If someone kills your best friend and you capture the perpetrator. Say that person possibly has information that could prevent the death of your mother. Could a good person consider some form of torture?

quote:

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:
I'm not sure I understand Goas's fascination with Guantanmo.

You don't think there was US torture under Clinton, Carter or JFK? Do you think China or Russia are torture free? How about Africa or the Middle East? South America? Do you think the UK or France have a better torture record than America?

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Absolutely, and I oppose that too. The difference is that this policy is ongoing, in a Western democracy whose values (and research) are against it, it's publicly prominent, and I can do something about it because it's closer to home.

quote:

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If someone kills your best friend and you capture the perpetrator. Say that person possibly has information that could prevent the death of your mother. Could a good person consider some form of torture?

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These scenarios just don't work. I've refuted them at length here in the past, and I could do so again, but really only one point needs to be made.

That's not what's happening here, with the US use of torture. This torture occurs for months and years after the capture of "suspects", most of whom are entirely unrelated to any kind of terrorist organization or threat whatsoever. Even if they had any useful information, your own military interrogation manuals admit that that information is only useful for 48 hours--beyond that period of time, the enemy has noticed the absence of one of their members and have changed their plans. The torture that goes on under your (as a country) auspices greatly exceeds that 48-hour period: it goes on for months and years.

Even then, the use of torture in that 48-hour period is unacceptable. If you really, truly want me to make a mammoth post rejecting torture point-blank, I will, but I think it suffices simply to show that these kinds of "dire situation" examples don't reflect the reality that I'm criticizing.

quote:

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Why aggrandize the US record? Interesting physiological question.

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I'm sorry, what?

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

quote:

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:

If someone kills your best friend and you capture the perpetrator. Say that person possibly has information that could prevent the death of your mother. Could a good person consider some form of torture?

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I suppose the key word here is 'possibly' - what if they don't?
Torture is a 'good' method because people would prefer to tell the truth than suffer. But conversely many people would also prefer to lie than suffer...
How do you know which type of person you have just tortured? The one who lies or the one who tells the truth?

Further to this, it must be difficult to extract the truth from someone under torture: an innocent man has nothing to confess and may end up telling a lie to avoid more torture, a guilty man may well have a lot to lose and may also resist torture to avoid incriminating himself.

These aren't my arguments, they're 400 years old They make a lot of sense though
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gp1GMTaUuzwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=cautio+criminalis#

quote:

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Originally posted by Kung_Fuscious:
I suppose the key word here is 'possibly' - what if they don't?
Torture is a 'good' method because people would prefer to tell the truth than suffer. But conversely many people would also prefer to lie than suffer...
How do you know which type of person you have just tortured? The one who lies or the one who tells the truth?

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The ticking bomb examples are insidious because they misrepresent the situation, however. In addition to the distortion that I mentioned above, there's the fact that if someone is captured with sufficient time to act on whatever information you extract, there's generally not enough time to conduct the kind of torture necessary to break them. Breaking a human being is a long process, not just one that takes a day. Furthermore, by the time you bring the person to the torturers and by the time the torturers have done their work, there's really not much time left in the ticking bomb scenario for you to act. Not to mention that if your information is good enough for you to capture someone close enough to the event that you can get the necessary information out of him/her, you probably already know the locale in which it will take place--making torture unnecessary.

Another distortion has to do with the one-many calculus that's employed. Of course the sacrifice of one is generally acceptable for the good of the many, but what torture proponents fail to understand is that torture doesn't just have an effect on one person, but on many. In order to torture effectively (which, if we torture, is what we want), then you need practised torturers, which in turn means that dozens or hundreds will have to have fallen to your methods, many of them likely innocent (you need to be practised in telling the difference anyway). But torture also affects the victim's family, and the effects on the torturer are well-documented: even CIA torturers regress over time, and become more likely to employ domestic abuse and the like. And don't forget that the chain of complicity runs high: you need doctors, janitors, guards, policy-makers, etc. on your side to implement these policies, and the effects of justifying torture permeate all of these levels. Our very social fabric is distorted to make room for torture, and thousands suffer as a result.

This is all well-documented. The case for torture, on the other hand, isn't just shoddily documented: it often flies in the face of the facts.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kung_Fuscious:
I suppose the key word here is 'possibly' - what if they don't?
Torture is a 'good' method because people would prefer to tell the truth than suffer. But conversely many people would also prefer to lie than suffer...
How do you know which type of person you have just tortured? The one who lies or the one who tells the truth?

Further to this, it must be difficult to extract the truth from someone under torture: an innocent man has nothing to confess and may end up telling a lie to avoid more torture, a guilty man may well have a lot to lose and may also resist torture to avoid incriminating himself.

These aren't my arguments, they're 400 years old They make a lot of sense though
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gp1GMTaUuzwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=cautio+crimina lis#

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I don't disagree and I don't support torture. There are scenarios though where a good person might be driven to torture someone. I still don't understand Goas level of obsession with every mistake the US makes.

I'm a bit disappointed Obama did not pick a gay black Asian Hispanic transgendered female for the Supreme Court. He missed out on some diversity.

On a serious note, quotes from the nominee:
"I would hope that a wise Latin woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life," said Judge Sotomayor

This month, for example, a video surfaced of Judge Sotomayor asserting in 2005 that a "court of appeals is where policy is made."

She also noted that the Supreme Court was uniformly white and male when it delivered historic rulings against racial and sexual discrimination. And she said she tried to question her own "opinions, sympathies and prejudices," and aspired to impartiality.

My take on it is Obama knows the Hispanic vote was the reason he got elected.

quote:

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:
I don't disagree and I don't support torture. There are scenarios though where a good person might be driven to torture someone. I still don't understand Goas level of obsession with every mistake the US makes.

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The torture issue is not a mere mistake: it's a crime against humanity, and has affected thousands. Mistakes are fine, but the willful harm of others is not.

Also, the US has made far more "mistakes" than their torture-related bungling. I have picked my battle and am standing my ground; that's hardly an obsession with niggling details. I don't appreciate your intimation of anti-americanism on my part. Either say it and back it up, or don't say it at all. Allusions won't serve anyone well.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

quote:

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:
Just seems strange to me how important race and gender have become in job hiring at any level.

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There's your bigotry for you, garry (if you're still watching).

EDIT: Also:

quote:

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:

I have picked my battle and am standing my ground; that's hardly an obsession with niggling details. I don't appreciate your intimation of anti-americanism on my part. Either say it and back it up, or don't say it at all. Allusions won't serve anyone well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:
I still don't understand Goas level of obsession with every mistake the US makes.

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You could stand to learn a thing or two. We must all be critical of mistakes any government makes. Especially those made by the US, self-apppointed the defender of the free world. We are so arrogant as to call ourselves Reagan's shining city, but when you get down to the details, we're as covered in mud as anyone else.

__________________
This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bugger:
There's your bigotry for you, garry (if you're still watching).

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quote:

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:
I don't disagree and I don't support torture. There are scenarios though where a good person might be driven to torture someone. I still don't understand Goas level of obsession with every mistake the US makes.

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No.no.no How come you don't ****ing get it you don't ****ing torture. PERIOD!

quote:

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I'm a bit disappointed Obama did not pick a gay black Asian Hispanic transgendered female for the Supreme Court. He missed out on some diversity.

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HURR HURR HURR OBAMA took an Affirmative action pick HURR HURR HURR.

quote:

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On a serious note, quotes from the nominee:
"I would hope that a wise Latin woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life," said Judge Sotomayor

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I hope so too.

quote:

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She also noted that the Supreme Court was uniformly white and male when it delivered historic rulings against racial and sexual discrimination. And she said she tried to question her own "opinions, sympathies and prejudices," and aspired to impartiality.

My take on it is Obama knows the Hispanic vote was the reason he got elected.

Just seems strange to me how important race and gender have become in job hiring at any level.

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Just stop. Stop posting.

quote:

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If someone kills your best friend and you capture the perpetrator. Say that person possibly has information that could prevent the death of your mother. Could a good person consider some form of torture?

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quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
Thanks President Obama for the "free" $250 that you're "giving" me as a part of your "stimulous" plan. Now I'll have something else to wipe my ass with.

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Protip to being taken seriously: spell "stimulus" correctly.

__________________
This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
Thanks President Obama for the "free" $250 that you're "giving" me as a part of your "stimulous" plan. Now I'll have something else to wipe my ass with.

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You make me laugh, you know that? Prove to me that you whined equally whenever you recieved a tax cut under Bush, or STFU and admit nobody should ever listen to anything you ever have to say, as you are now clearly a mindless, witless ideological cog.

Or, put a different (less incredulous) way:
To paraphrase a joke:
You know, I used to say that pigs would fly when a republican would mindlessly bitch about his tax cut. Well, swine flu a few weeks ago, so I guess this was just overdue.

quote:

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Originally posted by pyr0ma5ta:
Protip to being taken seriously: spell "stimulus" correctly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
@Bugger: IT'S NOT A TAX CUT *******!!! It's "free" money from a "stimulus" plan that isn't going to stimulate anything, and that's loaded with pork (which is something Obama said he would eliminate). As much as I need the money, I don't want it.

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Fine, tax rebate. My point still stands, however- you are still bitching about money that is being handed to you because you are so deeply entrenched in your political narrow-mindedness that you've lost all touch with reality or logic. You've admitted you need the money- and yet you still bitch about not wanting it because it's what you're supposed to do.
Instead of taking the money, you're just using it as a crude jumping-off point to whine about the stimulus bill again. Because that's what you're supposed to do.
You want no truck with anyone's opinions but your own- Well, not really your own- just you and every other dittohead. Because that's what you're supposed to do.
You're a joke.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bugger:
Fine, tax rebate. My point still stands, however- you are still bitching about money that is being handed to you because you are so deeply entrenched in your political narrow-mindedness that you've lost all touch with reality or logic. You've admitted you need the money- and yet you still bitch about not wanting it because it's what you're supposed to do.
Instead of taking the money, you're just using it as a crude jumping-off point to whine about the stimulus bill again. Because that's what you're supposed to do.
You want no truck with anyone's opinions but your own- Well, not really your own- just you and every other dittohead. Because that's what you're supposed to do.
You're a joke.

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quote:

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Originally posted by skizzetmonger:
As much as I need the money, I don't want it.

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Dude, I understand completely. Who wants to suffer a tax and deficit increase later so we could get stimulus money? Someone's got to do something! Now, you are obviously a very dedicated individual who means what he says, so how about you do something about it? Divide up the money you received among all the members of GD. Since that money came from us, the taxpayers, and you don't want it, returning it to us will effectively undo Obama's policy and prove your point ... which is what you want, right?

PM me for my address. If I receive a few bucks in the mail, then I (and some others as well, probably) will listen to you because you've proven you can put action behind your words. Until then, though, please stop complaining.

Thanks!

quote:

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Originally posted by AlmasterGM:
Dude, I understand completely. Who wants to suffer a tax and deficit increase later so we could get stimulus money? Someone's got to do something! Now, you are obviously a very dedicated individual who means what he says, so how about you do something about it? Divide up the money you received among all the members of GD. Since that money came from us, the taxpayers, and you don't want it, returning it to us will effectively undo Obama's policy and prove your point ... which is what you want, right?

PM me for my address. If I receive a few bucks in the mail, then I (and some others as well, probably) will listen to you because you've proven you can put action behind your words. Until then, though, please stop complaining.

Thanks!

AlmasterGM

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1) if I give you and every other person here money, wouldn't I be going against my "Do it yourself" view?
2) Since I'm a part of the taxpaying public, wouldn't I be giving myself some of the money as well?

Nice job at making a point genious. And when the left stops complaining about everything they don't like, I'll stop complaining about what I don't like. Sound good to you?

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
1) if I give you and every other person here money, wouldn't I be going against my "Do it yourself" view?

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No, because it's taxpayer money, and GD represents a sample of said taxpayers. You're only given back what was taken - a refund, so to speak. Ideally, you would spread the money over every single taxpayer, but that's impractical, so restraining it to GD will suffice.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
2) Since I'm a part of the taxpaying public, wouldn't I be giving myself some of the money as well?

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Certainly. You're entitled to a percentage just like everyone else. The rest you divvy up.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
Nice job at making a point genious. And when the left stops complaining about everything they don't like, I'll stop complaining about what I don't like. Sound good to you?

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Sounds great. I'm not part of the left and I'm not complaining about anything except you (which has nothing to do with politics). So according to your own criteria, I suppose that means you can stop complaining now, doesn't it?

Oh yes, and ironically, it's genius, not "genious." And I'm pretty sure that's a blatant misspelling, not a typo.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
I'm just going to give the VA the $$$ I owe them for copays (if they don't take it out themselves anyway) and give the rest to Strikeouts for Troops.

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I'm glad to hear about the donation to charity. Personally, I think there should be significantly more taxpayer input on where money goes. If that were the case, I think there'd be a lot less waste and a lot more spending on meaningful things. Granted, this isn't as perfect a situation as returning the money to its rightful owners pre-taxation, but it's a solution none the less.