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This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

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Originally posted by pyr0ma5ta:
To those people who claim that atheists and evolutionists such as myself are close-minded, try watching this.

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You should be more open-minded.

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Stages of Death: Anger, Denial, Barganing, Depression, Acceptance, Burial, Decay, Haunting, Revenge, Evil Laugh

I lived in a poor neighborhood (our family received food stamps and my college was paid for by the government). Most of the people in that neighborhood were poor by choice. Drugs, drinking, sloth(TV), poor choices, etc. I have no problem with the government helping people out who are down on their luck. It just needs to be managed properly. Drug and alcohol testing, report cards or job performance ratings, etc. You can't fix poor with money, just with education.

By the way even from my poor family, my sister graduated from Cal Tech. So those top colleges are more than accessible with hard work.

As I have pointed out many times. Cities with large poverty rates have been voting Democrat for 50 years. Very little changes. Chicago is as bad now as it has ever been.

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Originally posted by ch3ckm4t3:
Competition is great. Be it sports or most areas of life. Competition is human nature. Of course it can be taken too far (like anything). And of course some people who cannot compete will rally against competition.

I lived in a poor neighborhood (our family received food stamps and my college was paid for by the government). Most of the people in that neighborhood were poor by choice. Drugs, drinking, sloth(TV), poor choices, etc. I have no problem with the government helping people out who are down on their luck. It just needs to be managed properly. Drug and alcohol testing, report cards or job performance ratings, etc. You can't fix poor with money, just with education.

By the way even from my poor family, my sister graduated from Cal Tech. So those top colleges are more than accessible with hard work.

As I have pointed out many times. Cities with large poverty rates have been voting Democrat for 50 years. Very little changes. Chicago is as bad now as it has ever been.

Ironically my children will have access to better education, more technology and a better quality of life and yet will qualify for affirmative action.

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Poverty-stricken rural areas have been voting Republican for 50 years. And are as bad now as they have ever been. Your point?

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This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

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Originally posted by garry anderson:

I paid back my hand out/up 10 fold.

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This is one thing I thought of when I was reading everybody's comments on handouts.

I'm sure there are people who live off of welfare, but there are plenty of people who use it as a way to rebound their career and get back on track. With welfare, once they do that, they can start paying taxes again. That generates some tax revenue that wasn't going to be there otherwise.

I'm sure none of you have a problem with government handouts to college students. Or maybe you do, but I think the same sort of logic applies. Get a kid through college, and allow him to become a successful employee somewhere. You spend maybe 50-100k on that kid, and over the years he'll pay it back in tax revenue. Seems like because the reward outweighs the risk by a bunch, you'll come out ahead. By that I mean, say 1 outta 10 people actually do graduate, and the other 9 flunk out. Not saying that's what happens, but hypothetically.

That one person will have a good job, maybe 50k+ a year, which is a bunch of tax revenue over the years. I'm new to this tax crap, so I dunno how much that would be, but I'm currently getting about 20% taken out, so lets say 12.5k per year * a minimum of 20 years. I don't wanna work that long lol. that's like 250k. About 1/4th of the cost of all 10 students. So basically, using my random ballparkage, if you get 2 outta 10 to succeed, you've broke even.

Real numbers would be better, but I think it would work out pretty favorably.

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Originally posted by GLE:
And man... what happens when we get past 300 GDs? Will we need a second MOTL?

And then past 300 MOTLs... we'll need a new internet!

Yay for people not voting in the NDP. Seriously, every policy they had I disagreed with. Pretty much everything they put out that was "positive", had some horrible side effect they made no effort to address, like a university tuition freeze with no provision that would allow the universities to recoup the lost money aside from "400 person classes and an entry requirement of 90% high school averages"... just like it was the last time they were in power and froze tuition.

This is what we get for voting like morons. Let's vote properly next time--or at least half-decently.

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"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

This stance protecting the aggressors is plainly contradicted by your deportation of John Demjanjuk, the alleged Nazi concentration camp guard. If "following orders" is a legitimate defence for your own soldiers and CIA officials, then it works for him, too. And you know what? It is NOT a legitimate defence. A person always has the right to refrain from acting, and even in the military, disobeying illegal orders is (usually) provided for. Even if it isn't, the consequences of disobeying have a much less severe human cost attached to them than actually following such heinous orders. Everyone involved needs to be made accountable, no matter how low down the food chain. Complicity is a mark of guilt, not angel-eyed innocence.

And now I check the morning headlines and discover that Obama will revive the terror tribunals with some minor concessions to the prisoners' rights... Disgusting policy reversal, and totally unacceptable. I appreciate the difficulty of the situation, but that's precisely why the right (legal!) thing must be done. Everything was bungled by the Bush administration, and that's just too bad. That's how the cookie crumbles, and you need the moral fortitude to see that through. Sure, it takes guts to do the wrong thing, especially in the face of the criticism it will generate--that doesn't make it the right thing to do, nor does it make it harder or less preferable than the alternative.

Show the victims at least an ounce of respect, please. RESTITUTION!

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"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
I just want to express my growing disgust with the Obama administration when it comes to its handling of torture. The decision to keep those pictures hidden is shameful not because the pictures are being kept hidden, but because hiding the pictures means that it's that much harder for victims to seek redress from their abusers. I think that the pictures themselves should be kept out of public hands because they intensify the shame of the victims. Victims should be able to decide whether to release photos depicting them or not. But that should not be used as a platform to protect the aggressors.

This stance protecting the aggressors is plainly contradicted by your deportation of John Demjanjuk, the alleged Nazi concentration camp guard. If "following orders" is a legitimate defence for your own soldiers and CIA officials, then it works for him, too. And you know what? It is NOT a legitimate defence. A person always has the right to refrain from acting, and even in the military, disobeying illegal orders is (usually) provided for. Even if it isn't, the consequences of disobeying have a much less severe human cost attached to them than actually following such heinous orders. Everyone involved needs to be made accountable, no matter how low down the food chain. Complicity is a mark of guilt, not angel-eyed innocence.

And now I check the morning headlines and discover that Obama will revive the terror tribunals with some minor concessions to the prisoners' rights... Disgusting policy reversal, and totally unacceptable. I appreciate the difficulty of the situation, but that's precisely why the right (legal!) thing must be done. Everything was bungled by the Bush administration, and that's just too bad. That's how the cookie crumbles, and you need the moral fortitude to see that through. Sure, it takes guts to do the wrong thing, especially in the face of the criticism it will generate--that doesn't make it the right thing to do, nor does it make it harder or less preferable than the alternative.

Show the victims at least an ounce of respect, please. RESTITUTION!

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The biggest reason for his current shameful kowtowing to illogic (by validating the 'following orders' defence) is mostly due to the fact that he has an intelligence system that's slightly out of control. The CIA has a very uneasy relationship with the current administration, and Obama needs to keep them at his service in order to accomplish pretty much anything involving internal policy WRT foreign policy.

Which isn't to say that that situation in and of itself is permissible, just that it's the unfortunate reality.

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Originally posted by Bugger:
The biggest reason for his current shameful kowtowing to illogic (by validating the 'following orders' defence) is mostly due to the fact that he has an intelligence system that's slightly out of control. The CIA has a very uneasy relationship with the current administration, and Obama needs to keep them at his service in order to accomplish pretty much anything involving internal policy WRT foreign policy.

Which isn't to say that that situation in and of itself is permissible, just that it's the unfortunate reality.

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You're going to have to educate me on this, because I know little about the relationship between the CIA and government. I was under the impression, however, that the CIA was supposed to be under the direct control of whoever happens to be in power. If it has enough power and autonomy to force your President to make such significant concessions, then it seems to me that that's an unacceptable situation.

Frankly, if an intelligence service doesn't like its mother government's call for legal review, that's just tough apples for them. Ultimately, they're responsible to their employer (the government), not the other way around.

I was also given to understand that much of the prisoner abuse and torture occurred outside the immediate vicinity of the CIA, thanks to corporate outsourcing to security firms such as Blackwater, and the use of military personnel. If so, then it would seem that CIA involvement hits closer to higher (more management-oriented rather than field-oriented) levels, which probably explains their own reticence to see justice done. But if that's the case, then it's all the more pressing that this reform occur. You can't talk about justice, hope, and a new age of foreign policy on the one hand, and keep the same sociopaths in charge on the other.

Still, I can appreciate that it's a difficult task, and not particularly pleasant for anyone involved. Which is why I think that the international community needs to get its act together and demand a public, international accounting for these crimes (since they're not just an internal problem)--not just for Americans, but for others involved in this huge torture network as well. We can't just recline comfortably and demand that Americans do all the work: we need to help, and ensure that the job is done properly and thoroughly (including within our own borders).

If the Obama administration is incapable of bringing justice in this matter, then so much the worse for it. It's extremely difficult to heal wounds (and regenerate reputation) when you consciously aid and abet the perpetrators of such heinous crimes. If this is the ultimate result (and it's certainly early to be judging) from this administration, then it stands severely tarred in my (international) eyes.

The unfortunate reality is not that these perverse sociopaths are being protected by the government: it's that they are guilty of terrible crimes, and have done harm to your nation which will live on for quite some time to come--particularly without a reasonable amount of accountability coming into play. This is harm that is only exacerbated by your government's protective embrace. I just hope that the next second-coming is capable of seeing justice done, thanks to being one more administration removed.

Actually, scratch that: I hope (in vain, I know) that these victims can launch an international class-action lawsuit against the previous administration and each and every one of the despicable human beings involved.

We can't just give our governments carte blanche. We have to DEMAND that they be every bit as legally accountable as we (private citizens) are. When my government laundered public money after the 1993 referendum, I demanded accountability, and we should all do so now.

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"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

__________________
This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

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Originally posted by pyr0ma5ta:
Yet another nail in the coffin for intelligent design: the gap between simple molecules and complex nucleic acids has been bridged. Yet another stone in the path has been found.

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Go Science Go!

& also the little coment at the bottom of that article . .

"Meanwhile, the Texas school board just took a vote on the age of the Earth"

Wow, What Vanity! All hail the power of faith. Faith, the uncanny ability of the ininformed to blindly follow that which cannot be proven, no matter how unlikely.

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:

You're going to have to educate me on this, because I know little about the relationship between the CIA and government. I was under the impression, however, that the CIA was supposed to be under the direct control of whoever happens to be in power. If it has enough power and autonomy to force your President to make such significant concessions, then it seems to me that that's an unacceptable situation.

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The CIA is an extreme right wing organization.

Bush left a lot of messes for the people to clean up, it will take some time to discover just how bad he's screwed things up. Somethings that were done in Bush's Holy War (he beleived God wanted him to do all the things he did) should not be disclosed to the public. Who knows what every Bush idoling moron would do if they saw what their Hero G.W. had done. Would they think it's ok to repeat it? More than likely.

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Originally posted by garry anderson:
The CIA is an extreme right wing organization.

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Evidence of this, please.

I'm not usually big on the whole "Source?" thing, but I can make exceptions.

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In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.

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Originally posted by STAT1C_X:
Evidence of this, please.

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Cointelpro.

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Originally posted by super324:
Cointelpro.

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* COINTELPRO

COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert and often illegal projects conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States.

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MOTL's best sale

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
* COINTELPRO

COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert and often illegal projects conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States.

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CIA was an Accessory. Also basically going around the world setting up coups and fascist governments that the United States deemed too communist or too left.

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This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

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Originally posted by super324:
that ****s up countries that do not agree with our values and spreads hate and discontent like a mother ****er.

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Shouldn't that read "Their Own Values"?

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Originally posted by pyr0ma5ta:
It's a bit out of line for you guys, clearly not well connected in the covert world of intelligence and counter-intelligence, to say that the tail wags the dog.

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Originally posted by garry anderson:
Surely there isn't anyone who could possibly believe that someone as clueless as George Dubya (the dog) wasn't being wagged by (the tail)?

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And your qualifications as an expert on American covert ops are...?

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This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

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Originally posted by super324:

Realtalk: The CIA is a terrible organization that ****s up countries that do not agree with our values and spreads hate and discontent like a mother ****er.

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Are "our values" held only by the "extreme right-wing" fringe? Does the "liberal left" not possess "our values"?

The CIA is ran by a presidential appointee. As much as you would like to pretend they are a bunch of renegade crazies, this is the real world, and the President and his advisors and policymakers are calling the shots. Calling it in an extreme right-wing organization would be like calling the State Department an extreme left-wing organization.

Yes it has a history of knocking off leftist governments, but welcome to the Cold War. If you are going to call the CIA an extreme right-wing organization for this, you may as well label the entire United States government, including Presidents like JFK who attempted the Bay of Pigs, the same.

As you said, it was as the

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United States deemed too communist or too left.

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I'm not saying you shouldn't disagree with some of the actions they have taken over the past several decades, quite the contrary. But to just single out the Agency and act as if it is a bunch of radical extremists is ridiculous. They have a mission with guidance from much higher and are doing what they are told by the people you elect or the people they appoint.
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In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.

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Originally posted by garry anderson:

Surely there isn't anyone who could possibly believe that someone as clueless as George Dubya (the dog) wasn't being wagged by (the tail)?

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He and his team were FAR from clueless and incompetent. Their moves were pretty much one and all cold and calculated. The kind of radical privatization that characterized the Bush years is not at all an accident. The only "accident" or "cluelessness" is that of the right-wing Friedmanite economic agenda that they espoused, which for some reason believes that trickle-down economics will work in everyone's favour.

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"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:

his team were FAR from clueless and incompetent. Their moves were pretty much one and all cold and calculated. The kind of radical privatization that characterized the Bush years is not at all an accident.

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Originally posted by garry anderson:
I can agree with this part of your statement, just not the (He and) part.

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You're entitled to your opinion. Sadly, bumbling idiot as Bush may appear, he was still savvy enough to surround himself with the right people and do enough things right to get himself elected president. Washington is full of brilliant people. Nobody gets there by accident, family ties or no.

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This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist.

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Originally posted by pyr0ma5ta:
You're entitled to your opinion. Sadly, bumbling idiot as Bush may appear, he was still savvy enough to surround himself with the right people and do enough things right to get himself elected president. Washington is full of brilliant people. Nobody gets there by accident, family ties or no.

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